Podcast | Using The 5 Moments Of Need Framework For An ‘Apply First’ Mindset – Bob Mosher

June 9, 2021
June 26, 2023

For too long learning has been about giving people new and more information, but it hasn’t been built around where the learner needs to apply that knowledge. Bob Mosher’s 5 Moments Of Need Framework help you pivot to a mindset where you consider the workflow first and foremost!

In this episode, Bob also explained why traditional classroom training has gone unchallenged for so long, how to empower learners to use information when you’re not around, why building skills should be viewed in terms of your performance and how you apply them and so much.

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Running order

0:00 Introduction to Bob Mosher and The 5 Moments of Need Framework’s origins
7:46 Why Apply is the moment you need to start with and pivot to.
11:29 The 5 Moments of Need SAVE classroom training and the legacy classroom model.
20:49 What are The 5 Moments of Need/what is the framework?
25:31 How can L&D professionals apply the framework to their day-to-day life?
30:42 What does great design for apply, change and solve look like?
36:11 Bob’s view on the shift towards building skills.
39:31 What L&D has done well during the pandemic.
43:36 One thing you can do to improve your learning culture today.
46:41 Quickfire questions

Five takeaways on using the 5 Moments of Need Framework to improve your learning culture

The 5 Moments of Need Origins

In a nutshell, a realisation that application is L&D’s calling. We all know there are moments when people are either brand new to learning or they want more because they already have an understanding of something – they’re training or moments one and two. But learners go through a different journey, they have to apply everything that’s been dumped on them during that training.

The trouble is that things change quickly and that poses the question of how they keep up! They find themselves in situations where recalling information alone isn’t enough – those moments where they need to troubleshoot and put information into practice. And that’s where the idea of leading with an apply design comes into the picture.

Pivoting to an Apply-first mindset

There might have been a temptation to apply the theory we’ve learnt first because obviously we’re an important stakeholder but our client is the learner. We have to know them better and sell them learning like it’s a product. Bob makes the point that Nike don’t go to their customers and force them to buy trainers because they have these five models in their product range – they understand what they need and communicate along those lines.

So, we have to pivot to that apply first mindset and not just concern ourselves with giving learners new and more. We say, how can I understand the workflow first, the build for the moments of apply, change and solve as best I can. There should ideally be as little training in that as possible, with us using that when it’s important and effective. Moments one and two might be new and more in the framework, but our starting point should always be apply.

The role of classroom training

Bob isn’t the enemy of classroom training! In fact, he believes The 5 Moments of Need SAVE that traditional method because it does help us use it when it works and when it makes sense. Nelson asked Bob why classroom training has been relatively unchallenged and unchanged over the years, and his reply is worth diving into in more detail.

For too long we’ve used the classroom to overteach, built around new and more but without the consideration of where and how it will be applied. And the reasons are that we’re comfortable and familiar with classroom training, it’s a legacy model but probably quite a broken one for those reasons we just listed.

That comfortability might be part of the reason people are happy to come to Bob and other L&D experts and tell them they need five days of training. Bob’s favourite response is why? Instead of pre-prescribing the solution, we need to get to the bottom of the problem and diagnose their symptoms first.

What are the 5 Moments of Need

Bob was keen to remind us that it’s a principle-based framework, not a methodology or any of the similar buzz words you might see. So, it starts with us having those moments where we need to know new stuff, then we get to the point where we can build on our base knowledge and experience to build more new stuff. However, we now have context and should approach the more phase differently. These moments ARE best served by training.

The problem is that we’ve got three more moments after that, starting with having to change that information so it fits my workflow and context – allowing us to apply it. Then we’ve got the stage of change itself, which has baggage in the sense of needing to unlearn and relearn. Solve is the highest stake one because we’re in a pickle and need to get out of that trouble quickly – the immediacy of that moment makes it very difficult.

What does great design for apply, change and solve look like?

Bob gave the example of a global services company with an 18-month onboarding process with a long time to competency. However, that’s all around new and more – not enabling people to apply information for a long period until their mentor was happy for them to get in hands-on mode. So, they built a model that wasn’t based around binders and books that teach them very little relevant information for the workflow or make it difficult for them to apply on the job.

How to connect

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